DX-World

35 Responses to “DXpedition Costs”

1. Gary ZL2iFB says:

   May 24, 2012 at 20:34

   Interesting analysis. I’m getting hit in the pocket twice: first through membership fees for various DX clubs that contribute to DXpeditions, then again through online or direct QSLs – but I’m grateful for the QSOs and QSLs so I’m happy, in the end. Its a shame all DXpeditions don’t (a) open their accounts to scrutiny (the $ per QSO figure is a great metric), and (b) upload to LoTW ASAP, and stop using that as a cudgel to beat more $ out of me. 73 Gary ZL2iFB
2. Tom GM4FDM says:

   May 24, 2012 at 21:33

   Yes, an interesting analysis. However, too often Clubs, Groups and individuals are presented with a fait accompli. i.e. a certain group of amateurs have decided to go to ******** for the benefit of others, please send us money. That’s the sinmplistic view.

   For the MEGA expeditions like VK0, why can’t groups be a little more open and say up from, we would like to go to Heard. We estimate it will cost us $xxxxx can you help us out. We plan to raise the funds by doing (x) (y) (z) we appeal to clubs and other DX Groups to support us. We would like unilateral support from individuals EITHER by initial donation, or by and agreed and fixed sum in OQRS once the expedition is over.

   I am personally not in favour of the latter as in the main, all bills for ship and other hires have to be paid up front. An expedition should proceed on a sound financial footing and not have to reply on OQRS donations after.

   If expeditions were more up front about costs, perhaps it would be easier to raise said costs. Why all the secrecy about funding??

   Tom
   GM4FDM
3. Don N1DG says:

   May 24, 2012 at 22:10

   Hi Tom:

   When dxpeditions apply for funding to clubs and foundations they DO submit budgets.

   I agree with you though, it’s time for dxpeditions to also publish the budgets for those working them and let the DXers know what their QSOs cost the dxpedition while it is ongoing.

   We’ll have to see if that opens the wallets.

   Don
   N1DG
4. Paul Richards says:

   May 24, 2012 at 22:52

   Some potential ideas here would include
   Increase the number of operators for large south sea expeditions – 30-40 ops paying $10k each takes a big bite out of the budget.
   Team up with government or other expeditioners and share vessel costs – the Venezualan guys seem to do this very well with their navy.
   Allow major south sea expeditions to charge say $10 per unique call, no pay – no confirmation (LOTW or otherwise). The ARRL currently prohibits this but maybe exceptions could be made for highly expensive operations.

   I remember being surprised when watching the 3y0pi video
   that another helicopter arrived on the scene not related to the ham expedition. Government, navy, environmental and scientific groups are visiting these rare spots on a regular basis – we need to build ham relationships with these groups with a view to sharing costs on future dxpeditions.

   South Georgia is in the top 10 most wanted and yet there is a permanently manned base in that island group.

   VP8ORK activated an unoccupied island in the South Orkney group yet there is a permanently manned base in this island group.

   All governments are strapped for cash these days – it is up to hams to sell the cost benefits of sharing resources in these remote locations for the benefit of all.

   Cheers Paul – vk4ma
5. Rich, KY6R says:

   May 25, 2012 at 03:22

   I would love to see a “thermometer” on a DX-peditions web site – where they show how much has been donated “so far”. It would spark me to donate _before_ the DX-pedition even starts travelling.

   I will have to up my contribution to NCDXF – and soon.
6. Yan (XV4Y) says:

   May 25, 2012 at 05:40

   Hi,

   Paul, I hope you were joking when you wrote your last comment.
   Seriously :
   - 30-40 is too much for many south islands were only small planes can land and small vessels approach the coast. Islands with governmental restrictions will also be impossible to reach since they can be affraid by the environmental or safety risks.
   - If you make people pay for a QSO this not anymore amateur radio. Check your local regulation, but in all the countries I have been living this is the basis of amateur radio.
   - Perhaps the Venezuelan are really lucky or have a good connection with the navy, but often dealing with administrations is not easy. They have different agendas. Ask those who need government authorization to go to an island and you will know. You cannot ask the government to help us for what is still a HOBBY. Of course, if you are a scientist having a mission given by the government on a rare island this is another story. But I never heard of 20 HAM radio scientists being send to the same island and having time to run pile-up for days.
   As you said, many governments are strapped for cash, but for many reasons (mainly resilience) their running cost are higher than those of privates. Going to an island with a warship or with a recreational craft will not involved the same crew and fuel consumption.

   Yan.
7. Lee ZL2AL says:

   May 25, 2012 at 09:30

   Essentially, Don is correct in his analysis. It seems to me that the ham community donates in direct proportion to the rarity of the entry. There are many “takers” in the system and many that cannot afford. PayPal and OQRS are helpful and should be more useful in the future. At the end of the day, publicity, publicity and publicity will win the donations. The quality of the ops and the rarity of the entity will also come into play. A previous suggestion of a thermometer to measure the financial health before during and after would be a great help. Yes, it’s only a hobby. But with all hobbies, there is a cost involved if you want to succeed to a top level and you should support the guys that helped you get there.
   73, Lee ZL2AL ZL7AA, ZL7T, ZL8RI, ZL9CI
8. Jacek SP5APW says:

   May 25, 2012 at 11:38

   I am active on bands from 3 years, so I am still hungry and chasing for new DXCC’s and IOTA’s. And I well understand that DXpeditions cost a lot and are done not only for their participants but mainly for individuals like me! I always try to support DXpeditions and think that everyone should do it according to capability. From the other hand I agree that people can’t be forced to pay because this hobby shouldn’t be closed for those who are not able to pay, because for them even 1$ is a significant expense.
   In my opinion the most important thing to do is to inform as early as possible what is expected budget for DXpedition, what is duration of it and targeted number of QSO’s to let people know how important can be their donations.
9. Gary, DF2RG says:

   May 26, 2012 at 06:24

   You also have to consider that our large pile-ups nowadays are made by “one-click-work-all-band-mode-slots-again-and-again-ego-types”, and giving little to none chance to those who actually NEED that specific contact for a completely new one. They would like to contribute to the cost, not the one who works his 26 slots for the umpteenth time.
10. RA3CQ says:

    May 26, 2012 at 17:39

    If we start to calculate the “QSO cost” it seems to be reasonable making a full both sides calculation.
    If I sit home it doesn’t mean I don’t spend money.
    Watch my electricity bills.
    Besides, if I need a slot (band, mode, country), I take a day off and don’t go to work.
    How much does my “day off” cost?
    I have to build antennas and buy amplifiers.
    If an expedition is bad and I have to call it for a long time my electricity bill is big enough.
    So if I minus all my expences from an expedition “QSO cost” it may occure sometimes that a team should pay me.
    Now seriously……I consider our hobby to be a pleasure for both sides and so I can’t say that a statement “we go to a rare plece – you pay” is a good principle.
11. Paul Richards says:

    May 27, 2012 at 01:30

    The argument that the “no pay- no qsl” principle is contrary to the spirit of amateur radio is just garbage.
    There are hundreds of commercial money making enterprises attached to ham radio.
    Are we advocating that Icom, Ham Radio Outlet etc should be selling their gear at break even because making money out of ham radio is unethical? Are we advocating that Yaesu and Universal Radio should be cognisant of hams in poorer countries and should be providing their equipment for free to operators in these locations (subsidised by charging higher prices to hams in first world countries).
    What exactly is wrong with a group of hams putting together a major dxpedition and then insisting that a percentage of the costs be met by persons requiring a qsl? Why is this contrary to “the spirit” of ham radio? At what point was our ham radio “spirit” hijacked by socialist ideaology that says that a service should be provided to everyone regardless of whether they are willing or able to pay for it?
    “Amateur” simply means we do not use our frequency allocations for commercial or profit making purposes. It does not mean that we cannot charge for qsl confirmations to defray the costs of a major dxpedition.
    If I attend an amateur sporting event it is my rightful expectation that the athletes are performing for no personal financial gain – it not unreasonable however for me to pay an entry fee into this event, a fee for parking my car, a fee to buy some hotdogs for the kids etc.
    Our dxpeditioners are amateurs and I would never support the mounting of a dxpedition for personal financial gain. It is not unreasonable however for the organisers of amateur events (ie dxpeditions”) to recover the costs of staging this event from the audience.
    The audience in our context are the people chasing the dxpedition.
    A dxpedition is simply an amateur sporting event, involving amateur participants who are giving their dedication, time and expertise for the love of the activity itself. Events have staging costs that are met through sponsorship and by charging the audience a fee to participate.
    Audience participation is not compulsory – if you cannot afford to attend the event, like all things in life, you miss out. Alternately you can volunteer your own personal time to the event (ie become a qsl manager) and thus commit your own personal resource in lieu of money.
    Paul Richards – vk4ma
12. Yan (XV4Y) says:

    May 27, 2012 at 02:09

    Paul,

    I am not talking about HAM spirit, but Law.
    Making people pay to have a QSL card is one thing, making people pay to have a QSO (and refusing QSO from those who did not pay) is another.

    Yan.
13. Paul Richards says:

    May 27, 2012 at 02:42

    Yan
    I have never said or proposed that any one would be refused a qso. Payment would however be required for the confirmation of that qso whether it be via LOTW or paper qsl.

    Working the major dxpedition will always be free – getting your confirmation will always cost money.

    Based on the logic applied by most hams to this issue, I am surprised there was not a riot at the gates of the Dayton Hamfest last weekend. How dare the organisers of this “amateur” event insist on charging an entry fee. Don’t the Dayton volunteers realise that this is contrary to the spirit of ham radio? Did they not realise that the holders of an “Amateur” license have an automatic entitlement to participate in all ham radio related events for free regardless of the costs involved in staging the event.

    As a minimum, the Dayton organisers should be making any entry fee purely voluntary and then should be applying any funds received to pay RA3CQs airfare to the event.

    Why should RA3CQ miss out on Dayton just because he has the fortune or misfortune of living in Russia with a large electricity bill?

    Paul – vk4ma
14. F8AFC Ronan says:

    May 27, 2012 at 05:07

    Hi all,

    This may be due to a very similar subject, but this conversation strongly reminds me an open-question asked by Paul (N6PSE) from the Intrepid DX group.

    Some very good tips have been given there on “QSL fees”, some should re-read this thread first IMHO.

    I agree, the amount of a major expedition to a super rare one is simply amazing. That sounds somehow logical, but Don’s presentation has the advantage of showing, for once, some figures and interesting stats.
    It points out, for instance, that the rarest the DX is, the more it costs for each QSO (individual contributions deducated), and the curve looks exponential.
    To me, it simply means that you can not rely on QSL “fees”, although it can be estimated, to fill-in the gap of your budget.

    What would happen if, for example, the QSO number target is not reached? Will you increase the “price” of QSL for those in-the-log?
    What would happen if, for example, all the equipment starts to mal-function, or if WX is extremely bad, or if a huge solar eruption comes in and closes all bands during the duration of the expedition?

    - Always consider the worst case budget (No QSO)
    - Never force people to pay afterwards for your expedition under the “QSL fee” excuse, and always propose bureau QSL’ing too;
    - Be as transparent as possible and as much in advance as possible on all topics.

    For sure this will motivate people to help you, and clearly, a volunteer donation up-front will always be higher and more useful than a “forced” payment afterwards.

    73
    Ronan, F8AFC
15. Paul Richards says:

    May 27, 2012 at 06:18

    Hello Ronan
    Can you give me an example of a major dxpeditions in the last 20 years where the adversities mentioned by you resulted in a significantly low qso count?
    This conversation is about major dxpeditions visiting highly remote locations. All of the adversities that you list are planned for and are consistently overcome.
    The “pay for confirmation” strategy is not meant to be a substitute for the existing dxpedition funding methods, it is touted as a means of bridging the cost gap that has opened up in the last 10-20 years.
    Whether we like it or not, dxing and contesting is the lifeblood of ham radio. The less major dxpeditions we have the less activity there is on the bands and this is frankly bad for ham radio.
    Many operators in ham radio need a reason to get on air and dxing / contesting is the reason for many. If in doubt, just listen to the bands during the lull in the sunspoy cycle when dx activity is low.
    Dxing in ham radio is akin to motor racing in the car world. Most guys building a decent ham radio station desire an arena whereby the relative performance of their station can be measured. Ham radio is also about personal leisuretime and entertainment. The more Dx of interest the more entertaining it is.
    I am happy to pay for my entertainment but am not as happy to do so when in essence I am susidising people who are free loading on the entertainment being provided.
    The only disappointment to me is that there appears to be very few hams who support my position which simply means less major dxpeditions, a boring dx environment and ultimately a decline in ham radio activity.
    A meaninful statistic that n1dg could have provided is the relative number of major dxpeditions today versus say 20 years ago. I suspect the number is less but possibly my memory is rose coloured by nostagia
    Cheers Paul – vk4ma
16. RA3CQ says:

    May 27, 2012 at 07:11

    Paul, it is not a socialist ideology but just a logic.
    Turning the amateur radio from a scientific into a commercialized hobby means that if you don’t have money don’t show up your nose here.
    And in 10 years there will be no youth in our but three reach old men jelously staring each other.
    Sometimes life isn’t only a money making.
17. Yan (XV4Y) says:

    May 27, 2012 at 07:23

    Paul,

    I never said HAM Radio should be free. It’s by nature all the contrary, an expensive and almost aristocratic hobby. That’s why you so few local operators in the poor countries or islands and you have to send some chaps their in order to “work the entity”.
    Paying for a meeting with friends or a new color display transceiver is your problem, but the “core of HAM radio” is by nature having a QSO and confirming it (usually by paper QSL) and this has to be free apart from your own costs.
    I think you are also wrong. The “lifeblood” of HAM Radio is not DX and contesting. I know as much as OM building rigs and using them only for checking they are actually running than OM being DX addicts or contest addicts. Ask an EME DXer by example, his QSO count will not be the same than an HF DXer.
    For me, the best common denominator among all the rich amateur-radio population is “Communication on the edge”. DXing is one way, contesting another, building high-tech homebrew SDR another, organizing EmComm networks another, designing a new low SNR procotol another, having QSO on the Appallachian Trail another… but all of this is HAM Radio.

    Yan.
18. F8AFC Ronan says:

    May 27, 2012 at 08:30

    Hi Paul (and all)

    “it is not meant to be a substitute for the existing dxpedition funding methods”.
    In a way, you are right. But for such “high budget” expeditions, QSL part represent a small fraction of the total amount, moreover easily compensated by “direct” contributions. Some people can afford to spend a few bucks to get a QSL, others can’t (either because of temporary or permanent personal situation). But all of them should be able to get a QSL.

    The key is to extend this to early donations, prior to the DXpedition.
    Today’s organizers should motivate more people “who can” to donate in the early phase of the project, still on a voluntary basis. Many guys add some extra-contribution after the expedition when requesting their QSL by different means (GS, OQRS, etc), just because they think this expedition has fullfilled what they were looking for. Things would be a lot more different if they had made this contribution before the expedition.

    Yes, there is a mental gap to fill (“why should I donate without being sure ?”). People may be afraid of some abuse (non-refunding donations in case of cancellation for instance).
    But organized by a reliable source and by putting the DX’ers more in front of the real problems/difficulties encountered, that will for sure open their eyes. And to do so, transparency at all levels and from the beginning is mandatory. This is not the case so far.

    Any up-front income will always be more useful than “maybe I’ll have” donations once everything is over. And the earlier those donations come, the bigger the chances of success are.

    Just my 2 cents :-)

    73 !
    Ronan, F8AFC
19. Paul Richards says:

    May 27, 2012 at 09:25

    ra3cq – this discussion is not about making money, it is about how to pay for an increased number of major dxpeditions. It is also about getting a fairer monetary contribution from all persons working and confirming the operation. No one here is advocating that dxpeditions should be conducted for profit and your posts so far have been typical of the illogical discourse that abounds whenever this issue is raised.

    Yan, I am in no way devaluing non dx related activities within ham radio – my key point is that these non dx activities do not generate traffic on the air. My presumption is that for ham radio to hold its band allocations that some actual radio activity from hams would be expected from government authorities.

    One final point, publicising and promoting dxpeditions in advance has become less commonplace as organisers are rightfully afraid that others will beat them to the rare location – refer 7o6a. This reality supports “rear end” funding arrangements via a “pay for confirmation” policy.

    Paul – vk4ma
20. Paul Richards says:

    May 27, 2012 at 09:54

    F8AFC

    Thanks for your very reasoned contribution to this discussion.

    I agree that the current contribution from qsling is small but it could be significant if a fee per confirmation was charged. Currently major dxpeditions are working over 20,000 unique calls – if only half sought confirmations charged at $5 over actual mail cost this would generate $50,000 which is far more than any typical contribution from a DX club or society.

    I would also suggest that hams working more band slots be required to pay more for their confirmations. This would encourage some hams to only work the slots that they actually need.

    The main problem that I have with your proposed solution is that there is nothing new in it. We already have a process of upfront donation and it is not adequate to pay for the major dxpeditions to the really remote locations.

    Your contribution also fails to address the “fairness” issue here. It is simply not fair to expect the minority of dxers to donate money when the vast majority make no contribution at all. Furthermore, the bureau QSLers not only make no contribution but are actually a cost impost on the expedition.

    The key issue that is never addressed in these discussions is why are we so passionate about retaining a free qsl policy for dxpeditions that have cost paying contributors in excess of $500k? It is simply not fair and it certainly limits the number of major dxpeditions that can be launched by the global dx community.

    Cheers and 73 to you

    Paul – vk4ma
21. F8AFC ronan says:

    May 27, 2012 at 14:40

    Hi again,

    Shall I understand you’d aim at allowing QSL’ing only to those who paid, oups sorry, to those who “donated”?
    Doesn’t it exclude the “poorest” ones from confirming a rare one?

    Not all of us can not afford each time all the fees associated to a direct confirmation, and this way of thinking is for me the definition of unfairness….The excuse of fees assocated to bureau QSL’s have already been discussed, even by QSL managers who know what they’re talking about. No way to put this argument into relief here, it wouldn’t be founded.

    For direct QSL’s, requesting an amount proportional to the number of slots is already applied in the major expeditions (T32C recently for example). That was one of the first time I saw this to my knowledge.
    But charging a minimum fixed amount of $5 whatever the number of QSO is the best way to at least halve the number of expected QSO’s, thus the expected “income” without talking about the huge amount of complains this attitude would create.

    No, sorry, but I’d stick to my point of view that bureau QSL are mandatory and that motivating more people to donate voluntarily prior to the expedition is one way to go.

    Surely there are other ways to budget a “rare” one apart from QSL’s incomes. And guys planning such expensive DXpeditions know about the amount necessary to set it up. This kind of operation has already been done (VP8ORK), this is being done (7O6T), and hopefully, it will continue to be done (VK0HI ?). No, it doesn’t occur everyday on the air, but isn’t it why those entities are rare?

    Nobody forces them to go there, so why would they “force” us to pay to QSO/QSL them? I’m afraid that one day, an operator is able to check during the operation if people already donated or not and says something like “sorry F8AFC, you didn’t donate, you call sign appear in red on my screen, so you are not in the log”…..
    This would indeed be the offical end of ham-spirit.

    Now, some simple ideas can be put in place
    - A kind of constantly updated budget “countdown” ending a few weeks or so before the offical departure date, explaining how incomes have been/are/will be used
    - Gathering donations promises for those who can’t “donate” prior to the expeditions (identification with their call-sign for example)
    - Updating frequently the progress of the project, not only from financial point of view, but also from logistics, human, etc point of view
    - Associating ham DXpeditions with scientists ones to reduce “travel” fees?
    - Looking for sponsorships out of ham world (just a funny idea of sponsorship with “energized drink” brand came to my mind to keep the operators awake, HI)

    Unfortunately, more and more this amateur hobby is turning into commercial aspects, so please let’s keep the very last “free” aspect of bureau QSL’ing alive.

    As usually, there is absolutely nothing personal in it, everyone’s free to express and defend his ideas, this is also why this site has been made for :-)

    73
    Ronan, F8AFC
22. Tim Beaumont M0URX says:

    May 27, 2012 at 16:38

    I do have to agree with many of Ronan’s comments. You always write very well Ronan.

    I would also like to add some new ideas into this debate.
    It is true that the biggest DXpeditions require quite substantial funding, so let’s talk about how we do that? Fairly.

    Most DXers around the World belong to a DX organisation where part of your membership fee is used to donate to DXpeditions that are worthy of a donation. The committees that run these DX organisations are best placed to assess who is worthy and who is not, and to what level of donation. I suggest as well as part of the membership fee which is uaully quite low how about a volunatry fee? weekly, monthy or yearly. Depending on your income, you donate to a level that YOU can afford. More to that I would insist that every DXer SHOULD belong to a DX organisation as this assists all DXpeditions in one way or another, we all get something back from it too. If a particular MAJOR DXpedition is coming up then the committee can put this to the members and they can also add extra to that DXpedition. It is something I would contribute to, at a level that i could afford. If you can only afford a very small donation that is fine too. But i do believe we SHOULD all be doing this. You get what you pay for.

    Another suggestion that i have, is one that I already have in place, postage is becoming expensive in many places worldwide. DXpeditions should not be paying top dollar to ship QSL cards. Instead DX organsiasions, (one is each country) should negotiate with the national postal carrier and get an International Contract Service for the DXpeditions to use, this would cut postal costs considerably up to 70% in certain destinations, which would move funds to where it is really needed. Most postal carriers offer Business rates online and this makes it available to a national level where a QSL manager or DXpedition to have access to the one account as a “satalite user” or “mailing house” I have set this up here in the UK for UK based DXpeditions.

    Would these two ideas help? You tell me.
23. F8AFC Ronan says:

    May 27, 2012 at 18:25

    Tnx Tim :-)

    “I had a dream that one day”, there was 1 big DX association per continent who goal was to fully promote/organize/sponsorize on his own DXpeditions to rare countries (let’s say in the top 50?), as a kind of annual or bi-annual competition with other continental associations.
    Criteria to select the winner would have to be defined, but some ideas would be:
    - number of unique calls worked
    - number of different DXCC worked
    - number of “out-of same continent” QSO’s versus total number of QSO’s
    - etc etc

    This would create a WW emulation I guess to both occupy the bands AND make some rare ones a bit less “rare”.

    I can see nowadays quite a lot of dispersion among many DX associations, more or less big, more or less at a country level, more or less proactive in sponsorizing more or less big DXpeditions. They do their best, they do it very well, but they do it at their level, generally not enough to do everything on its own (exception given for a few of those organizations).

    1 big continental association to drive 1 big project at a period to be defined (per 2 or 3 years), in addition (and not in replacement) of the existing associations would simplify to my mind all this process/worries/constraints that are mandatory to set-up such BIG projects.

    Principle of “financing” would be the same as the one you proposed Tim. Membership possible, but donations opened to everyone with as much transparency as possible. Regular update of the up-coming event from all aspects would be mandaotry, and even for those BIG dxpeditions, bureau QSL’ing would be mandatory :-)

    Just a dream….
    73 !
    Ronan, F8AFC
24. Paul Richards says:

    May 28, 2012 at 01:06

    Hello Ronan – thanks once again for your considered comments here.

    I again emphasise that the “pay for confirmation” model would only apply to major dxpeditions to remote locations. Even with the increased funding that this model would make available it is unlikely we would ever have more than 5 or 6 major dxpeditions per year. This would require each ham seeking a confirmation for all 6 major dxpeditions to contribute only an extra $30 per year.

    Of course concessions should be considered for hams living in poorer countries but as a general rule there is absolutely no reason why hams living in western Europe, USA, Japan and many other places should not be making this kind of contribution.

    When you look at the breakdown of major dxpedition logbooks the vast majority of qsos are with hams in the USA, Western Europe and Japan. I frankly think it is disgusting that hams in these locations would argue against compulsory fees for getting a qsl card on the basis that hams in poor countries cannot afford it. This is akin to insisting that food in France should be sold cheaply because genuinely poor people in Chad cannot afford quality food.

    In short, this is yet another example of the widely acknowledged ham cheapness or ham scunginess and quite frankly I think it is a damn ugly trait. It is one thing to be cheap and frugal at your local hamfest but it is quite another to use the economic misfortune of third world hams to justify first world hams not making their fair contribution to highly expensive dxpeditions.

    “Nobody forces them to go there, so why would they “force” us to pay to QSO/QSL them?”

    Nobody is forcing you to do anything. It is your choice whether you make a qso with the major dxpedition. It is your choice to make the decision re purchasing the qsl confirmation. Like all things in life, if you think the price is too high simply elect not to buy the confirmation.
    This argument is simply ridiculous and is analogous to saying that the guys paying the entrance fees at the Dayton hamfest were forced to do so. Sure, everyone would love free entry into Dayton, but most acknowledge that a compulsory entrance fee is appropriate to cover the costs associated with organising event and few resent paying it.

    What is so different here – a major dxpedition is an event put on by volunteers using a substantial amount of their own money and resource for the entertainment of dxers worldwide (just like Dayton). Why don’t we feel that there is the same responsibility for dxers enjoying the event to pay a compulsory fee. I agree it is certainly not a donation – it is a compulsory fee and I make no pretence about this.

    In practice, how I would see this working is that major dxpeditions would need to apply to the ARRL DXCC committee to get special approval, on a case by case basis, to use the “pay for confirmation’ model. This would prevent the practice from being used on holiday style or even moderate sized Pacific Island dxpeditions – ie these smaller operations would not be accredited for DXCC if they tried to use the “pay for confirmation model”.

    Paul – vk4ma

    Cheers
    Paul – vk4ma
25. Paul N5PG says:

    May 28, 2012 at 03:12

    “I frankly think it is disgusting that hams in these locations would argue against compulsory fees for getting a qsl card on the basis that hams in poor countries cannot afford it.”

    *Compulsory* fees for a QSL card have no place in our hobby , ever. The buro should always be an option, albeit a lengthy one!

    Remember the W9WNV saga ?
26. F8AFC Ronan says:

    May 28, 2012 at 07:20

    Hi Paul,

    Thanks for your well explained comment once again.
    I got your point about considering “payment for confirmation” only for major DXpeditions. I even appreciate your consideration for poorer countries to propose them a discount on the QSL price.

    Now, if we go in that direction, why not also proposing a “QSL discount” for unemployed people, handicaped people, retired people, very low salary people, head of big family people, other ?
    For sure, there are hams in those “developped” countries who live with a very low standard of living, sometimes even below the local poverty line, certainly with poorer conditions than some hams living in “poorer” countries. As of today, I agree, $5 is not that much, personally speaking. Few years ago, due to the vagaries of life, it would have been a totally different story to me. And I’m sure that unfortunately, this is a totally different story for quite a lot of hams nowadays;

    No, there is no point in distinguishing where the QSL request is coming from. This is simply what I call “discrimination” and that definitely goes against ethic rule of what “ham community” is.

    Definitely, this QSL subject appears to be endless. So let’s put it aside if you don’t mind, not to restrict this vast subject of major DXpedition funding to QSL….

    One question could be raised : How to increase incomes prior to the expedition?
    - optimizing donations (tempt more ham community by a transparent and constantly porject update?)
    - optimizing sponsorship (out of ham world?)
    - optimizing expenses (common travel fees with scientists ?)
    - others ?

    I’m very sure all those aspects have been already deeply discussed among the latest big DXpedition commitees. I wish one day I’ll have the DXpedition experience to understand all the details and propose more “practical” solutions.

    73 !
    Ronan, F8AFC
27. RA3CQ says:

    May 28, 2012 at 08:19

    I read and laugh, guys.
    More and more…very quickly ham radio turns into a business.
    All that is dicussed seems to have nothing to do with a DX-pedition organizing (remember that the expeditons happened always withing the last 100 year) but it looks like a fight for profit.
    I don’t like it.
    I want it to be a place where I rest with my soul.
    Anyway….even if I am a dinosaur….
    You are inventing a bicycle.
    Globalization and taxes :)
    Offer a “QSL tax” and this will solve all the difficulties.
    It depend on a salory (poor or rich) and will automatically regulate the amount of “donation”.
28. Paul Richards says:

    May 28, 2012 at 08:52

    Thanks Ronan
    You make some good points once again
    I agree that there is little value in pursuing the “payment for confirmation” discussion any further. I know that the vast majority of hams disagree with my position so there is little value in “flogging a dead horse”.
    Unfortunately I have no other “game changing” ideas to bolster dxpedition funding.
    I personally suspect that “payment for confirmation” will continue to evolve by stealth as it has done in recent years. Some examples include:
    If you want a fast LOTW confirmation you must pay $5 via OQRS
    If you want a fast direct confirmation you must pay $5 by OQRS
    It is interesting that these fund raising strategies do not breach the ARRL rules on payment for qsls.
    It seems that is now OK to make a donation compulsory for a fast direct or fast LOTW qsl as long as you provide a “safety net” for poorer (or miserly) hams in the form of free bureau qsling.
    Maybe this is a fair outcome but we cannot deny that for certain categories of confirmation (ie fast LOTW / Direct via OQRS) a mandatory donation process already exists for most major dxpeditions.
    This will be my last post on this particular issue as I will free space for others who hopefully may have some alternate “game changing” ideas
    Thanks Ronan for your civilised and rational input on this matter
    Cheers and 73s

    Paul – vk4ma
29. Tim Beaumont M0URX says:

    May 28, 2012 at 09:19

    There is one serious flaw with this below:
    If you want a fast LOTW confirmation you must pay $5 via OQRS
    If you want a fast direct confirmation you must pay $5 by OQRS

    This being that Joe Bloggs going to “Costa Del QSL” for his holiday will also be charging $5 for his OQRS because Joe Bloggs thinks it is normal to charge $5 for one QSL. We see this already from MANY holiday DXpedition groups over the last 2 years. Lets all go on holiday and charge $5 and have our holiday paid for us by the QSLers. (NOT)
    You say we have a choice? Do we? I dont think so with the above example.

    LoTW should be uploaded at the earliest opportunity. Complete!
    Direct QSL cards should NOT be held back depending on how much I pay. All should be posted together.

    Donations to fund MAJOR DXpeditioning must be at the front end of the DXpedition. Up front and push that donation button, people can make up their own mind on amount of donation depending on their circumstances.

    Igor – Like it or not major DXpeditions HAVE to be run in a business like way. We are talking $250,000+ DXpeditions. If someone was holding that much money and i was donating, then i would ONLY donate if i knew that it was going to be run in a business like way to prevent fraud, theft and other craziness.

    QSL should always be available to EVERYBODY! Be affordable to EVERYBODY. Please let’s follow this example.

    It is important to debate this matter, it is also important to remember to be courteous to one another. My beliefs may not be agreed by all but this is my belief.
30. F8AFC Ronan says:

    May 28, 2012 at 10:06

    Hi guys,

    Agree with Tim, when talking about MAJOR expeditions , this inescapably nowadays leads to huge amount of $$$$ (more than in the past?), but we must keep QSL affordable for everybody and bureau should remain a mandatory condition for any official approval.

    Agree with Igor, MAJOR expeditions already took place, but I guess the guys who did it were either rich, or had a magic receipt, or managed cleverly to balance everything, or enjoy “easier-to-deal-with” fees, or the 4 of them. This may be why we have fewer MAJOR ones than in the past (although my experience in ham radio barely exceeds 1 solar cycle), without talking about recent geopolitical changes of course.

    Agree with Paul, I did also appreciate this courteous exchange of ideas and luckely, we are still free to have contradictory opinions (but not on everything :-) ) Let’s just not abuse for the minimum fees involved in direct confirmations, $5 is just too much.

    We can find a consensus IMHO by saying that
    - Up-front incomes are a key to balance over-all project from all aspects : Human, financial, technical etc.
    - Transparency during the entire preparation phase may motivate potential donors to bring their “brick”, or “already convinced” donors to bring a heavier brick.
    - Widening the range of sponsorship to other domains than ham radio may help.
    - Co-joining ham activities with scientists ones may also help to reach such lost islands in Southern oceans.

    Having a guy in this thread who participated in a major one might light up some new ideas. But apart from giving general ideas here, I must admit my scope on setting-up MAJOR ones is limited :-)

    73 guys, thanks a lot for this exchange !

    Ronan, F8AFC
31. RA3CQ says:

    May 28, 2012 at 14:44

    > Like it or not major DXpeditions HAVE to be run in a business like way.

    Tim, you could be right if we’d work only few EXPEDITIONS.
    Be we don’t.
    So BIG expeditions exibit only like an example for the rest and so every funny vacationeer now asks for $5.
    And every IOTA-er now asks for $5.
    And as you know my post isn’t the best in the world and my directs disappear often.
    And even if I use PayPal the directs often disappear on their way to me. So I never know how much do I need to pay.
    Am I the only one unlucky?

    >This would require each ham seeking a confirmation for all 6 major dxpeditions to contribute only an extra $30 per year.

    Paul, this isn’t too easy and we are talking not only about $30 per yer but about much more money.
    Add IOTAs…add many countries in the world (AS, AF, SA) where are not too many amateurs watching what is happening with “money-for-QSL”. Bad example for them.
    $5 seems to occure a standart “QSO payment”.
    Not even for a QSL.
    I, myself, have got a QSL with only 1-2 QSOs on it many times.
    And is all just like taxes – you only need to agree and pay once.
    It will never stop.
32. VK4FW Bill Horner says:

    May 28, 2012 at 22:01

    Firstly congratulations to Don on a great job doing the research on those various dxpeditions to give the home operators a taste of what really has to take place for a dxpedition to be even mounted.

    I find that for the most part comments on here so far do nothing to encourage operators to support dxpeditions. There are comments from operators on here that refuse to even answer buro qsl cards all the while trying to advocate what sort of direction dxpeditions should be forced to take.

    For many years people have wrongly assumed that I am rich and that I make thousands of dollars from doing dxpeditions and qsling. If in fact any of this was remotely true then I would never be at home and would continually go from country to country.
    Granted there are some out there who are in fact rich enough to do such a thing and I do not need to mention names and callsigns ( a quick check of dxpeditions over the last 10 years will divulge who they are ) and good luck to them. All be it they may be financially well off they still make the decision to go to some less than desirable place just to give the deserving a qso and yes they like everyone else request donations and so on and so they should.

    If every operator in the world was to give $20 per year at the start of every year to a single dx organisation eg NCDXF then the amount of money would be astronomical and the bank interest alone would go very close to being able to pay for all dxpeditions mounted for any countries in the top 100. Of course many would say it can not work but it could especially if eg.NCDXF was to make it mandatory that they appoint a qsl management team which would then make sure all cards were answered in a timely manner and sent in bulk to the various countries throughout the world.

    Before you all cry poor I will bring to your attention the amount of qsl cards that I have answered here over the years ( just over 1 million ) and the many many hundreds of thousands of them that have listed their very expensive rigs and amps and antennae they have……. a lousy $20 as a mandatory subscription would not send anyone broke.

    Obviously the above will need some refinement before it is perfect but for the love of me I can not think of any other way to ensure dxpeditions to rare and hard to get places happens unless the rich are going to do them out of the goodness of there hearts whilst the rest of you sit and want your precious cards for the usual fee of nil or damn near nil.

    Money is a necessity no matter what we do or want , no matter where you live in the world ………. Amateur Radio is no different especially when dxpeditions to rare places start costing upwards of $50 – $750k.

    Again Don congratulations on the research……. a job well done as usual.
33. RA3CQ says:

    May 29, 2012 at 06:42

    Hi Bill.
    First..Thanks for your expeditions and QSL!
    Now…The statement that an expedition costs money causes no doubt.
    What I’m trying to say…
    In fact all our discussion circles around :
    - I like to travel and I am a ham. Give me the money for my trip. I want to see a world for free.
    - We don’t want to pay for your joy.
    - A joy? What joy?! It is only a pain in the ass – license, problem, e.t.c
    - Then don’t go!
    And all from the very beggining…..
    People usually would give $20-30 per year easily but to whom?
    If this system starts everyone will want to go somewhere.
    Even a faraway farmer.
    What are the criteries of choice?
    Well known people?
    As far as I see very few people nowerdays can be a good operators and process a pileup…Mainly longly travellers.
    As for the teams calling themselves “an expedition”….
    60-80% are funny. But all want money.
34. Yan (XV4Y) says:

    May 29, 2012 at 07:17

    Igor, I think you got the point. These expeditions are nothing essential to our hobby, they are just for the pleasure an glory of their organizers, and to a lesser extent to the pleasure of the DXer who work them.
    Since they are entirely voluntary expedition, funding should be voluntary too.
    Argument that such expeditions are for the defense of our part of the spectrum are fallacious. If it was the case the said expeditions would not be using CW but only SSTV and packet-radio, if we should better fund OTH RADAR projects and ATV repeaters.

    I know that big projects need big money and I am not moved by the fact a big dxpedition run wih a 250k$ budget. What I want to tell is that the core of our hobby should remain free for money : QSO and QSL are free and open to everyone.

    Just compare it with sport, with football (the one you don’t play with hands). I know players are paid a bunch of money, they play in big stadiums in front of big crowds paying their tickets and watching the adverts on TV. It pro sport, and even if I prefer amateur sport spirit if you want a good show you watch pro sport. But the day each football player will beg money to the public before touching the ball make sure there is 5 bucks in the envelop before letting the commentator shouting “goal” I will turn off the TV for sure.

    73,
    Yan.
35. RA3CQ says:

    May 29, 2012 at 07:37

    :) Exactly Yan.
    Besides…these expeditions give a bad example to the others.
    Imagine..each yard team starts to ask for $5 while the professional reporters continue saying:
    - Guy, pay your money for the football. Players want to eat. It’s only a few big matches per year.
    So to my mind you are right – the core should remain free.